In 1997, sports and pop culture were just starting to merge. Keith Hernandez had been on Seinfeld five years earlier, Dan Patrick and Keith Olbermann were slipping all sorts of references into SportsCenter, and ESPN’s magazine, billed as Sports Illustrated for Gen Xers like myself, was set to begin the following year.
Knowing that players, announcers, and coaches liked the same movies, shows, and music you did was still sort of a secret code that made them more relatable if you were open to it. It was around this time that I was thumbing through the Knicks media guide and stopped at the page for fan favorite Herb Williams, who would be summoned to service by the Garden faithful back then only when the Knicks were blowing someone out (which it’s hard to remember happened a lot back then). Under his personal info he chose to share that he had seen The Godfather over 25 times. Being my favorite movie, although I really think the Tahoe stuff in II is the best of the saga, I thought that there must be other sports figures who loved the movie the same way. I created an insane 50-question “Godfather Aptitude Test,” with bonus questions being the name of the boat Vito comes to America on or the teams playing while Michael and Hyman Roth talk in Florida. (The Mosholu and USC/Notre Dame in case you’re so inclined)
Growing up in Westchester and being a lifetime New Yorker, my first thought was to contact Mike Francesa. I’d never called into his show, but used to phone in back when WFAN 660 AM was WNBC. I had no connections to reaching him and was freelancing while teaching Social Studies in pre-gentrification Williamsburg. I figured The Godfather was my in. In 1995, I had spotted the recently-deceased Danny Aiello on the floor at the Garden during a Knicks/Magic and asked him to sign my ticket stub. When his surprisingly-large posse told me to leave him alone I told them to relay the message that “Michael Corleone says hello,” his only line in Godfather II, he told his crew to wave me forward to sign the ticket. Fortunately, I was able to find a sympathetic staffer at WFAN, who forwarded my request to Francesa. I was more than a little surprised when they came back with a time I could call him off the air.
These days, Mike Francesa is as polarizing a figure as there is in New York sportscasting. Skip Bayless, Stephen A. Smith, Colin Cowherd, these guys all owe their careers (and the scrutiny that goes with it) to Mike and The Mad Dog, Christopher Russo. The ESPN 30 For 30 pretty well covered their influence, but Mad Dog hasn’t become the lightning rod for criticism that his partner has. Between leaving WFAN, only to come back, launching an app that made the Obamacare site look efficient, and his constant “hot takes,” Francesa is torn up daily in the papers and on the internet. There are numerous blogs and feeds that highlight his incorrect predictions and bombastic prophecies. But he also has spawned “FrancesaCon,” which includes impersonators both male and female.
Mike Francesa finally appeared in his first real movie role thanks to Adam Sandler in Uncut Gems. With his recent (and supposedly) final goodbye to WFAN, there will be undoubtedly even more Francesa talk from both sides of the aisle. Listening to our 34-minute conversation now, you can hear all of the Francesas in there. However, what I remember most of all is that he let some random 25 year-old kid talk to him during his dinner about his favorite movie.
I think the movie comes out March 21 for its 25th anniversary without added footage.
Who else do you have for this piece?
I got the idea when I read that Herb Williams claimed to have seen film 25 times in Knicks’ media guide. I thought of Ed Koch, but apparently he’s going to be doing The People’s Court in a few months. (At this point I was really bullshitting my reach). I never really thought Mad Dog would be into this even though was in Bad Lieutenant. (Chris Russo’s voice appears in the background of numerous scenes)
Bad Lieutenant? The voice? He didn’t even know what he was doing in that. He didn’t even know what the movie was about. He wasn’t aware, it was such a terrible movie. It’s a very, very, bleak movie. I think he was kind of embarrassed when he found out what the movie was about. I mean, Woody Allen once used some of my stuff in one of these movies, but people basically just took it off the radio. ’92, I think, it was in the background with my talking about the Knicks, but uh, he’s allowed to do that. (This is where he got down to business)
Tell me what I can do for you.
Did you take a look at this ridiculous test?
Ridiculous. Too minute.
I assume it’s one of your favorite films.
Clearly. It’s one of my favorites, not my favorite. But I don’t list them just as favorites. I have different kinds of movies for different things.
I guess it’s kind of its own genre. I guess uh..
The movie as its own movie? Forget III. The first two are tremendous. DeNiro was a tremendous extension of Brando. Pacino was not nearly as commanding or forceful as DeNiro. He was commanding like Brando and had the same feel. Obviously he was the younger Vito, but he actually conveyed the same kind of command and power and respect while obviously being able to be a loving person. While Michael, obviously to maintain, what he thought was the proper way of executing that whole organization, and running it lost his humanity completely.
Pacino wasn’t the studio’s first choice at all. It was the Solozzo scene that saved Pacino.
He fit very well as Michael as the son playing off Brando, extremely well, and even fit well when he orchestrated the killing in the restaurant when you actually saw him start to take charge to come of age and take command and show that he had a sense and a smarts that Santino couldn’t even comprehend. So that, you saw his coming of age there. But when he was himself at the last moments of the movie and…in II…he never had the command physically or in any way that DeNiro and Brando shared in that role.
So the whole thing in the second one, uh, in the second one, the whole kind of … (I was trying to suggest that Michael’s descent was the point of the second film, but Francesa could sense me prattling on and used his expertise to steer me away)
The second one basically was better in the scenes with DeNiro than it was with the scenes with Pacino. The second one all you basically saw him was not only him modernizing and Americanizing their family business, but also his total loss of family and humanity.
And conscience…
He did not understand...he wasn’t able to walk that line to do what he had to do but also maintain that love and adoring family around him like his father did or like DeNiro did as the young Vito. He wasn’t able to juggle that act. He wasn’t able to walk that line…he obviously, remember the scene when he talked to his mother before she died?
About losing his family.
He basically said how did he remain the leader without losing his family?
Exactly. So in terms of the character, the acting that Pacino pulls off…there are those that will argue he kind of…the Michael character…the whole point of the second one is that he kind of plummets into this Howard Hughes/Nixonesque state of paranoia…
Not only just paranoia. Loss of conscience really, more a loss of humanity. He became a monster (his famous voice made it sound like “monstah.” He didn’t understand any other way to do it and you could also argue that it was not natural to do it so he had to take it to that level while it was very comfortable and natural for Vito Corleone to live that life and to separate family and business. Michael, who may never have wanted that to begin with was never able to separate it and had to almost divorce himself from his feelings to carry out the role. To carry out the business, he couldn’t do it and still be the leader of the family and a man. He almost had to become like a machine or a monster to carry it out.
Abosutely. What do you think, and I do view the first two as companion pieces…
The first two fit very, very, well. The first two fit well, the third one’s a joke. The third one was to make money. I mean obviously, Coppola you know wanted that, but the third one is an absolute joke. It really is. I mean, obviously, it was a return to humanity for Michael but it was not well done. It doesn’t even belong in the same library with the first one.
Well when you get George Hamilton and Father Guido Sarducci (Don Novello) in it you really have to question…
Copolla’s daughter…It’s not just that. There wasn’t a strong script, but I’m not Jeffrey Lyons. But I will tell you that the third movie was junk. I think anybody who has any feelings for the first two knows that the third movie was junk.
Originally I read Winnona Ryder was supposed to play the role that went to his daughter. I’ve read a few reasons as to why. Narcotics addiction, but she was originally slotted in for that spot.
What do you think is the lasting legacy of the first two movies? I mean a much more eclectic crowd is going to see when it comes out again and it has a much more far reaching affect than something like Star Wars.
Like Westerns, quote unquote gangster movies or crime movies or underworld movies, they are a certain genre just like western is and these were the best ones ever done. I mean there is no question about it and it is done…very rarely…the best tribute you can say about those two movies is this:
Very rarely is a movie even comparable to a book in terms of its treatment. The book is usually so much better. You could actually make the case that the movie was better than the book and that is very rare and tremendous. I mean you had great stars in it, Brando was absolutely brilliant, Michael as the son was tremendous, Diane Keaton did a good job in what she had to do (pure breakdown like it’s a game plan versus execution), Talia Shire, Santino all of them. I thought they had great character actors like Clemenza and like Abe Vigoda. You had tremendous, tremendous actors in there. I think it was very well done and I think a big key to those kind of movies I don’t care if it’s that kind of movie, I don’t care if it’s a western I don’t care if it’s even a sports movie if you pay attention…I’m a stickler for attention for details in movies where you can’t insult anybody who might have an understanding of the time or what the author’s trying to do in the book or what the treatment’s supposed to be…you can’t insult it and I think their attention to detail and how realistic a lot of it was played out I thought was very, very well done.
What do you think…
It’s timeless. I mean it’s very hard to sit down and not watch it. I think if you walk in your house…the thing to me about a great movie…If you walk in your house and you flip on your TV and that movie’s on
Sneeze (it was not a fart as we was accused of making during his ripping of Jets coach Adam Gase this year)
Excuse me.
God Bless you.
Three hours later, you’re still watching it. That is that is the essence of a great movie. Now whatever it may be. It might be Body and Soul by John Garfield. It might be Shane. It might be The Godfather but to me if you flip it on…I know everyone has different tastes but if you come in the house and accidentally come across a certain movie…three hours later your’e still watching it and to me that’s what The Godfather is. It’s timeless. It’s a period piece, but it’s timeless and I thought it was exquisitely done and brilliantly acted and great mesh of actors especially in the first but even in the first two I thought it was a great, great mesh of actors.
What do you think and this is very personal in terms of the themes that basically come out of the book that make it timeless because I do think it transcends even a mob movie or a film on post World War II America…
I think there’s all that in there. I think it has meanings for what it is to be Italian in America. It also has very strong messages about family. I think it plays well. I think also about a movie like that, you don’t have to take it apart (even though we are). I think you can look at something like that as just a work of art that it is. I’ve never met anybody who knocked that movie.
I can agree on that.
If you sit around and talk movies with people and we’re out to dinner recently at the Super Bowl with a bunch of guys and we were talking about movies and we, it’s funny, it might not be everybody’s favorite movie but nobody knocks that movie. Nobody didn’t enjoy that movie and nobody hasn’t seen that movie more than once. Now you tell me how many movies are there that people have seen almost universally more than once?
Alright, Casablanca? Yes. Gone With The Wind, yes. From there you’re going in a whole different direction with a lot of different things. Alright, you wanna get into It’s a Wonderful Life and some things that have to do with holidays and stuff like that? But overall how many movies are there that most people have seen more than once? The Godfather is clearly in that category and is really one of the important movies made in the last 50 years I don’t think there’s any question about it and one of the most popular.
Anyone you know who particularly identifies with it?
I’ve seen people questioned and they said it’s their favorite movie. I know the Net coach John Calipari told me it was his favorite movie. I think it’s a lot of Italians’ favorite movie.
You know since you’re up on these things that when it came out it took a lot of heat…
That was a long time ago, you know I was a kid when it came out.
But being a student of contemporary history it took a lot of heat from the Italian-American league, Sinatra had his own little beef with the Johnny Fontane character. How do you feel… (Clearly I was trying to ask him his feelings as an Italian, wheras my Jewish insecurities were getting in the way)
The movie’s fiction. I think it has to be treated as fiction.
And even the themes that particularly irked any Italian Americans or just Americans in general?
Listen, I’m…it’s a funny thing that I don’t care who you are there are stereotypes, OK?
People think that Italians are all in the Mafia. It’s almost like a running gag now. Italians don’t take it seriously though. It’s just a running gag. And more New York Italians, but it’s a running gag I don’t think anyone takes that seriously
Well at the time…
I was a freshman in college when that movie came out.
Where did you go to school?
St. John’s. (He transferred after one year at South Florida) And I was a freshman when that movie came out and I can remember on vacation…I was on Spring Break and I was in Florida and I actually went on a beautiful day…in the afternoon…the first day it came out. No, as a matter of fact, it wasn’t on spring break it was over Christmas vacation, I went to see Godfather II in Florida the day it came out and I was in Florida over Christmas holidays and I went to see it. That was how much I wanted to see number two and it was probably in 73. (The movie was released on December 20, 1974, but you can’t blame him for the details being fuzzy)
You probably know that they shot the Little Italy scenes in the East Village and the scene where Michael Gazzo gets garroted by Danny Aiello is on 7th and B in the East Village. (At this point, Francesa decided to turn the tables and interview me)
How’d you become such a big fan of the movies?
Of what of, The Godfather? Are you a movie guy?
I’m a movie guy but it’s in the context of a lot of other things…Are you a writer? If you ask…I’m hugely into the San Diego Chargers which must be a masochistic kind of thing.
Are you a writer by profession?
Yeah I’m a writer by profession. I teach some classes during the day...
How old are you?
I’m 25, almost 26.
Well when did you see The Godfather for the first time?
The first time I saw the Godfather was…1988 when I saw it on video. It’s the kind of thing where I saw the movie once and then they put the whole trilogy together…
Which you own? Yeah, I own it too. If I fit into that person, I do own it. It’s in my library.
It’s just the kind of movie from a fantasy perspective; we all kind of envy the power that they exhibit …
But you know what else too, you know what comes from that? It’s not a very comfortable life. It’s almost like the western gunfighter. Sooner or later you’re going out boots up. Sooner or later somebody’s gonna be faster, somebody’s gonna be quicker, somebody’s gonna be younger. So the whole idea of that is an uncomfortable existence.
Somebody showed me a copy of the registered screenplay for Godfather III which was done in ‘79 and is actually when the film is supposed to take place which is a completely different script which has them wrapped up in the Kennedy assassination. For me, having the same problems with the third one that you did plus Duvall not being there it got off to a bad start To me the whole idea of Michael going legitimate…for me I enjoy watching even though as you said it’s precarious life…
How about Talia Shire? Talia Shire when they watch the movies 100 years from now she will have been in the three Godfathers and the five Rockys--pretty interesting crossover when you think about it.
Like a lot of people, The Godfather is really what got her started…
But she’s in the five Rockys too and a couple of the Rockys….you see everyone makes fun of the old Rockys, I mean Rocky 1is a classic movie.
Absolutely.
Rocky II isn’t bad, but after that they become a complete cartoon.
Once you get Mr. T involved…
Rocky II and especially one is a classic movie it really is and it’s interesting that she has a major role in both of those things you know they’ll be watching Rocky 1 a hundred years from now and they’ll be watching The Godfather 100 years from now.
Exactly Rocky’s pretty much it’s own genre when you think about every sports film where they don’t win in the end from the Bad News Bears…
Absolutely. You know the way I judge it is this I have a handful of movies that I consider classics and I’m a big movie guy and to be there’s a handful of and a couple of them people might not love or even recognize, uh Body and Soul with John Garfield and Lilli Palmer.
Great movie.
Absolutely brilliant movie. A boxing movie …John Garfield…great fight scenes Lilli Palmer, uh recommend it highly. Shane which I believe…I know The Searchers is a movie that everyone believes in as kind of the grandfather of the western…I think every western came from Shane. The whole idea of where westerns went was developed from Shane the allegory the good vs evil the idea there was place for the gunfighter to exist anymore in a changing world that movie to me is one of the great movies of all time so I have a handful and I haven’t seen too many movies in recent years that I would put into that group that have come down the pipe. A good movie I’ve seen recently believe it or not I think Tootsie is a classic movie and I think that a few good men is a classic movie.
I guess people compare it to the play, those that saw it.
I thought it was a brilliant movie, myself.
It’s got a nice ensemble.
The courtroom scene. Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson are unbelievable.
While we’re on the subject of Godfather III what did you think about Goodfellas?
I liked Goodfellas. I thought it was a little goofy at times but I liked it. IT was pretty good. They’re very different though.
Scorsese has his own…
Completely. There is almost an earthiness and a street urchin quality. The Godfather in a sense was almost high mass compared to… as ceremonial compared to what Goodfellas would be.
I agree it’s got a little more pomp than circumstance.
It’s got almost a religious quality to it compared to the baseness or almost the low rent quality of Goodfellas (laughing) which was a good movie, it’s not a bad movie.
It’s supposedly, from the book.
Pesci’s role is unbelievable.
The fact that Godfather III even got nominated the same year is in reverence to that.
Pesci was unbelievable. And it’s funny that Pesci probably defined that guy more in the last 15 years than The Godfather. You know what I mean? It shows you how different it is. Put Pesci up against Michael Corleone? You know it’s a whole different deal.
Obviously I’m not up on it but I guess organized crime has gone through a loss of the quality that The Godfather had.
It shows you where the country’s going. (Francesa has gotten some criticism from his fellow New Yorkers for his pubic admission of voting for Donald Trump in 2016. Francesa is planning to move to South Florida, primarily for tax purposes)
Yeah I think that’s a pretty fair assessment.
Not that we want to elevate organized crime to some sort of…
No I think a lot of people I talked to identified the struggle to implement the old world values .
No question. The old world values the idea of family and the idea of being able to separate business and family and the idea that its only business…is really…that’s real! And it’s cold and its cold natured and its cold hearted…its business and the other is family and to watch Michael just disintegrate and almost melt as a person and he’s in this struggle you almost get the feeling if you go back to the early Michael…he says “Kay, that’s my family. That’s not me.”
Yeah.
How he almost disavowed himself and then is dragged in when he tries to keep his father alive. “I’m with you now,” in a hospital room and then is dragged in and his father never wanted him dragged in and he’s dragged in and then as he’s dragged in, he has to almost drain himself of any human quality to play the role and to leave and what he never understood and never could justify and maybe he couldn’t live that way is that he couldn’t lead and be a person.
Exactly and for a lot of people that’s where he really grows into that role particularly when he goes to Brando’s bedside and says “I’m with you now, pop.”
And he grows elegantly he grows eloquently into that role at that time.
When he has his jaw wired shut and he…
Well when he sits in the chair and Santino says “Tom, Tom, he’s taking it personal. It’s just business.” He goes to slap him in the face and he says wait a second—and suddenly the whole room everybody in it is drawn to his brain and his leadership and at that point he has taken over
Exactly.
He sits in a chair, here you get the feel in the room and all the eyes are on him and he tells you how he will kill kill Salerno (Solozzo, but he was rolling and I wasn’t correcting him) and kill the cop and talks about and then you get the feel about how he has come of age and it’s almost like he’s opened a door that he never wanted to open but maybe he knew was always there.
I think I feel the same way you do about The Godfather and I recently listened to the audiobook on tape as read by Joe Mantegna doing ALL the roles.
Really?
It’s unabridged so it’s got all the stuff that’s left out of the movie. I agree tha the stuff that was cut out was done so for dramatic purposes. There is no way you could go into the whole plot with Lucy Manicini, Sonny’s lover and the doctor.
You didn’t need it. They told you what Santino was and explained to you what his downfall would be—his temper and his womanizing would be his downfall. And you know there are some things in there that are classic, classic principles that are in there. Things like a humble man and a patient man always gets his chance and also women and children can make mistakes. Men cannot make mistakes.
Being foolish.
Can’t make mistakes. So a lot of that stuff I don’t care if you’re talking about business it’s true. It’s true you learn some principles and I’m not gonna get into all the stuff. There are some interesting things in there that are true
Yeah I mean especially in the book, Santino says all along that he thinks Mike has this potential and is just waiting for him to break out of this Ivy League façade. Things that go way beyond the world of organized crime.
Oh yeah it’s more about the Americanization and the growing up of a family in America as much as it’s in the backdrop of organized crime. Yeah I think that’s the element that’s really made it lasting. I think the crime element is secondary. It’s one of the great character studies of a character—the strength and charisma of a Vito Corleone. Michael, who had no idea how to do it. His idea wipe was to wipe everybody out.
When Tom asks him if he needs to wipe everybody out, he says only my enemies.
Yeah, wipe everybody out. Vito Corleone would never have thought he had to wipe everybody out. He (Michael) just had to eliminate everything. Very interesting character study though and a classic, classic movie.
I think that’s it. If I need to get anything Living in New York and watching MSG long before they had anything but the Untouchables and the Knicks and listening to the FAN or previously WHN I’m pretty familiar with your work if I want to get a simple little bio since I don’t want to waste your time can I just call the station?
Just call me I have them here I’ll have them faxed to you.
What happened to the (MSG Network) Live From The Play by Play with Jennifer Smith?
I didn’t wanna do it anymore so they had to cancel the show. That was built for me. That was my show. They came to me they weren’t gonna do it if I didn’t do it. I did it for three years and when I cancelled it they didn’t wanna do it anymore. I couldn’t take it anymore. Sixty-five nights a year was driving me crazy. That and doing the radio every day was wearing me out.
How did you feel about having to interview so many people that had nothing to do with sports?
I got to interview so many people Michael Douglas, Rob Reiner, Bill Cosby (this was 1997), Jesse Jackson…I mean, on and on Arnold Schwarzenegger I mean it was fun.
You ever think about doing the Costas route and doing a Later type show?
No I think there are too many shows. I think the problem, Ross, is that I won’t do anything until there’s somethings that’s good because there’s too much garbage out there right there and I don’t need the money and I will do it if its good but I haven’t come across anything that’s that good a vehicle yet.
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